Top 10 Myths about the Middle Ages

[Rowan]

I found this on another site and thought I'd share:

10. Death Penalty
Myth: The death penalty was common in the Middle Ages

Despite what many people believe, the Middle Ages gave birth to the jury system and trials were in fact very fair. The death penalty was considered to be extremely severe and was used only in the worst cases of crimes like murder, treason, and arson. It was not until the Middle Ages began to draw to a close that people like Elizabeth I began to use the death penalty as a means to rid their nations of religious opponents. Public beheadings were not as we see in the movies - they were given only to the rich, and were usually not performed in public. The most common method of execution was hanging - and burning was extremely rare (and usually performed after the criminal had been hanged to death first).

9. Locked bibles
Myth: Bibles were locked away to keep the people from seeing the “true word”

During the Middle Ages (until Gutenberg came along) all books had to be written by hand. This was a painstaking task which took many months - particularly with a book as large as the Bible. The job of hand-printing books was left to monks tucked away in monasteries. These books were incredibly valuable and they were needed in every Church as the Bible was read aloud at Mass every day. In order to protect these valuable books, they would be locked away. There was no conspiracy to keep the Bible from the people - the locks meant that the Church could guarantee that the people could hear the Bible (many wouldn’t have been able to read) every day. And just to show that it wasn’t just the Catholic Church that locked up the Bibles for safety, the most famous “chained bible” is the “Great Bible” which Henry VIII had created and ordered to be read in the protestant churches.

8. Starving Poor
Myth: The poor were kept in a state of near starvation

This is completely false. Peasants (those who worked in manual work) would have had fresh porridge and bread daily - with beer to drink. In addition, each day would have an assortment of dried or cured meats, cheeses, and fruits and vegetables from their area. Poultry, chicken, ducks, pigeons, and geese were not uncommon on the peasants dinner table. Some peasants also liked to keep bees, to provide honey for their tables. Given the choice between McDonalds and Medieval peasant food, I suspect the peasant food would be more nutritious and tasty. The rich of the time had a great choice of meats - such as cattle, and sheep. They would eat more courses for each meal than the poor, and would probably have had a number of spiced dishes -something the poor could not afford.

7. Thatched Roofs
Myth: Peasants had thatched roofs with animals living in them

First of all, the thatched roofs of Medieval dwellings were woven into a tight mat - they were not just bundles of straw and sticks thrown on top of the house. Animals would not easily have been able to get inside the roof - and considering how concerned the average Middle Ager was, if an animal did get inside, they would be promptly removed - just as we remove birds or other small creatures that enter our homes today. And for the record, thatched roofs were not just for the poor - many castles and grander homes had them as well - because they worked so well. There are many homes in English villages today that still have thatched roofs.

6. Smelly People
Myth: People didn’t bathe in the Middle Ages, therefore they smelled bad

Not only is this a total myth, it is so widely believed that it has given rise to a whole other series of myths, such as the false belief that Church incense was designed to hide the stink of so many people in one place. In fact, the incense was part of the Church’s rituals due to its history coming from the Jewish religion which also used incense in its sacrifices. This myth has also lead to the strange idea that people usually married in May or June because they didn’t stink so badly - having had their yearly bath. It is, of course, utter rubbish. People married in those months because marriage was not allowed during Lent (the season of penance). So, back to smelly people. In the Middle Ages, most towns had bathhouses - in fact, cleanliness and hygiene was very highly regarded - so much so that bathing was incorporated into various ceremonies such as those surrounding knighthood. Some people bathed daily, others less regularly - but most people bathed. Furthermore, they used hot water - they just had to heat it up themselves, unlike us with our modern plumbed hot water. The French put it best in the following Latin statement: Venari, ludere, lavari, bibere; Hoc est vivere! (To hunt, to play, to wash, to drink, - This is to live!)

5. Peasant Life
Myth: Peasants lived a life of drudgery and back-breaking work

In fact, while peasants in the Middle Ages did work hard (tilling the fields was the only way to ensure you could eat), they had regular festivals (religious and secular) which involved dancing, drinking, games, and tournaments. Many of the games from the time are still played today: chess, checkers, dice, blind man’s bluff, and many more. It may not seem as fun as the latest game for the Wii, but it was a great opportunity to enjoy the especially warm weather that was caused by the Medieval Warming Period.

4. Violence Everywhere
Myth: The Middle Ages were a time of great violence

While there was violence in the Middle Ages (just as there had always been), there were no equals to our modern Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. Most people lived their lives without experiencing violence. The Inquisition was not the violent bloodlust that many movies and books have claimed it to be, and most modern historians now admit this readily. Modern times have seen genocide, mass murder, and serial killing - something virtually unheard of before the “enlightenment”. In fact, there are really only two serial killers of note from the Middle Ages: Elizabeth Bathory, and Gilles de Rais.

3. Oppressed Women
Myth: Women were oppressed in the Middle Ages

In the 1960s and 1970s, the idea that women were oppressed in the Middle Ages flourished. In fact, all we need to do is think of a few significant women from the period to see that that is not true at all: St Joan of Arc was a young woman who was given full control of the French army! Her downfall was political and would have occurred whether she were male or female. Hildegard von Bingen was a polymath in the Middle Ages who was held in such high esteem that Kings, Popes, and Lords all sought her advice. Her music and writing exists to this day. Elizabeth I ruled as a powerful queen in her own right, and many other nations had women leaders. Granted women did not work on Cathedrals but they certainly pulled their weight in the fields and villages. Furthermore, the rules of chivalry meant that women had to be treated with the greatest of dignity. The biggest difference between the concept of feminism in the Middle Ages and now is that in the Middle Ages it was believed that women were “equal in dignity, different in function” - now the concept has been modified to “equal in dignity and function”.


2. Flat Earth
Myth: People in the Middle Ages believed the earth was flat

Furthermore, people did not believe the Earth was the center of the universe - the famous monk Copernicus dealt a death blow to that idea (without being punished) well before Galileo was tried for heresy for claiming that it proved the Bible was wrong. Two modern historians recently published a book in which they say: “there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth’s] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference.”


1. Crude and Ignorant
Myth: People of the Middle Ages were crude and ignorant

Thanks largely to Hollywood movies, many people believe that the Middle Ages were full of religious superstition and ignorance. But in fact, leading historians deny that there is any evidence of this. Science and philosophy blossomed at the time - partly due to the introduction of Universities all over Europe. The Middle ages produced some of the greatest art, music, and literature in all history. Boethius, Boccaccio, Dante, Petrarch, and Machiavelli are still revered today for their brilliant minds. The cathedrals and castles of Europe are still standing and contain some of the most beautiful artwork and stonework man has been able to create with his bare hands. Medicine at the time was primitive, but it was structured and willing to embrace new ideas when they arose (which is how we have modern medicine).

[Volgadon]

I am pretty sure that incense was used to kill body odour. Have you ever been in a confined space in the middle of a Middle-Eastern summer? Even with deoderant I can tell you that it is no fun.

[Libby]

Thanks for those Rowan. They were interesting points and for the most part probably true, though it has to be remembered that the term 'middle ages' cover around 500 years - the same as from the end of those ages until now. so you only need to consider the changes in the last 500 years to see how wide a time scale needs to be considered.

It's true that many houses here in the UK still have thatched roofs. I saw several today! As for running water. It's not that long since running water came to modern homes. I can remember my grandmother's house which had one cold tap in the kitchen and a toilet in a brick building at the bottom of the yard. (And I am not that ancient!) A better standard of living would have been available at say Middleham Castle 500 years ago.

When I first saw the thread I thought your link was going to be this one:

clickie (http://members.tripod.com/historicalnovelists/medlife.htm)

At another forum we were discussing floor rushes, which is one of the subjects here. It really does seem more sensible that they were woven into mats rather than strewn as if the place was a stable. It would have made it possible for floors to be swept and kept clean and even is mats were not usual at the beginning of the middle ages I bet they were towards the end.

[michellemoran]

Great list!

[princess garnet]

Thanks for posting this!

[Rowan]

Thanks for those Rowan. They were interesting points and for the most part probably true, though it has to be remembered that the term 'middle ages' cover around 500 years - the same as from the end of those ages until now. so you only need to consider the changes in the last 500 years to see how wide a time scale needs to be considered.

Actually the site I got it from gave a figure of more along the lines of 1,100 years.

[Libby]

Actually the site I got it from gave a figure of more along the lines of 1,100 years.


I would count the Middle Ages from the Norman invasion of 1066 until the end of the Plantagenets in 1485, though it could be argued that the dissolution of the monasteries is a better cut off point.

What dates does the site give if any?

[Kveto from Prague]

nice list. thanks for posting. probably mostly true. i am glad the bathing one is in there, that one has always bugged me. the flat earth one as well.

i would take exception to the violence one, at least with the world leaders. id claim that Jengiz Khan and Timurlane both outdid 20th century badies. also the serial killer one is kind of naive. it should probably say the only serial killers that we know of were bathroy and de rais. who knows how many were never caught?

but other than those nice list. id imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle for most of em

[donroc]

Great list. Thank you.

[MLE]

Hmm -- it seemed that the writer of that list was so eager to disprove every concept of the middle ages that they 'gilded the lily' so to speak.
I'm afraid as I scanned the list, the credibility of the whole was compromised by the overstatements.

The one that particularly stands out is the business of daily meat consumption. I'm going to make a guess that the poor of the middle ages were not very different from the poor in the non-globalized world today. And meat is not a menu item that appears daily in any form for the poorest third of the world. Weekly, maybe, but not daily, unless you want to count the involuntary ingestion of insects.

And about women having equal power. In societies where brawn is more important than mechanization, those who are strongest have most of the power, and that isn't women in most cases. Not fair, but very real. That's why they called the colt .45 'the great equalizer'. If that is true today, why would it have been any different then?

And about cleanliness. I stomp the wilderness all the time, and I can tell you from personal experience that bodily hygiene is firmly linked to how tired you are at the end of a day, how much trouble it would take to freshen up, and whether anyone near you would care. Y'all wouldn't want to be downwind of me after a five-day-trip unless you smelled the same. But those middle-age peasants might have higher standards than I do.:D

[annis]

I can't help feeling that the women quoted in Myth 3 were probably the exception rather than the rule. It's also notable that the majority of these women mentioned were of noble birth, apart from Joan of Arc (though Dinah Lampitt aka Deryn Lake has an interesting theory about her - in her novel "The King's Women" Joan is the illegimate daughter of Duchess Yolande of Anjou and Arthur de Richemont, Constable of France) High birth and resources of wealth and influential relatives gave an advantage not possessed by average women. For every Eleanor of Acquitaine there were many who were subject to the will and disposition of father, husband and/or son, as ordained by the Church.

[Ash]

Thats what I thought as well. I also question the execution part; there were indeed many burnings, esp during the reformation by both sides. Not uncommon at all, unfortunately.

[Margaret]

This list makes very interesting fodder for conversation, but I'd have to agree that it goes too far overboard, fostering some new misconceptions in its attempt to debunk old ones. Joan of Arc, Hildegard of Bingen and Elizabeth I were very striking exceptions to the general rule that women were considered inferior to men.

Joan spent about a year leading an army, but never got much support from King Charles, even though he could not have been crowned without her efforts. After she was captured by the Burgundians and turned over to the English, her refusal to wear women's clothing was a key part of her trial for heresy. She was burned at the stake, which doesn't exactly make her case a shining example of respect for ambitious and capable women in the Middle Ages.

Hildegard was a remarkable woman who spent the first half of her life in extreme seclusion as an anchorite, then suddenly blossomed, had her mystical visions approved by the religious authorities, founded her own convent, went on preaching tours, and wrote letters to popes and emperors in which she felt free to rebuke them quite sharply when they did things she didn't approve of. She's an exception that proves the rule, because women were not supposed to preach; Hildegard herself frequently paid lip service to the religious principle requiring women to be subservient to men, even while violating it herself.

And Elizabeth I frequently referred to herself as a weak woman. She often deflected criticism by exaggerating her femininity, and she played her suitors off against each other because if she had married, her husband would likely have taken the reins of power. Elizabeth was a political genius, and had to employ a good deal of that genius in holding onto her power in spite of being a woman.

I agree with MLE that peasants probably did not eat a great deal of meat or other luxury foods. Actually, their diet was probably healthier than that of the aristocratic classes, consisting mainly of whole grains, peas and lentils, cabbage and the like. I was surprised to discover that European nobility ate white bread long before the modern era - the flour was sifted to remove the bran.

[Carine]

I would count the Middle Ages from the Norman invasion of 1066 until the end of the Plantagenets in 1485, though it could be argued that the dissolution of the monasteries is a better cut off point.

What dates does the site give if any?

I would've thought the Middle Ages start around 500 up to the Tudors.

[EC2]

Sharan Newman has a list of myths about the Middle Ages on her website - or she used to - including the one about chastity belts. Yes, here it is. Six Fallacies about the Middle Ages.
http://www.sharannewman.com/history/fallacies.html

Edited to say that the chastity belts thing used to be on that list but it's not now.

[Libby]

I would've thought the Middle Ages start around 500 up to the Tudors.

I was referring to the 'Middle Ages' as defined by English rather than worldwide history:

Definition of the Middle Ages dates in England - 1066 - 1485
Their is some variance in the views and definition of the dates which encompassed the Middle Ages. We have included events in England from the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and ending in the emergence of the English Renaissance period with the Tudor dynasty in 1485. To put this into perspective, and for ease of reference, the periods in English history have been categorised as follows:

Neolithic - Stone Age ( 3000 - 1800 BC )

The Bronze & Iron Age ( 1800 - 600 BC )

The Romans (600 BC - 410 AD)

The Dark Ages - Anglo-Saxon England ( 410 AD - 1066 AD )

The Middle Ages - 1066 - 1485

The Renaissance Period in England starting with the Tudor Dynasty

Thats what I thought as well. I also question the execution part; there were indeed many burnings, esp during the reformation by both sides. Not uncommon at all, unfortunately.

That's true, but the reformation followed the Middle Ages, when there seems to have been a huge retrograde step in society as people's sense of justice and toleration was totally destroyed by most members of the Tudor dynasty. People were burned for their private faith - something which never happened earlier and many of these deaths were ordered by Elizabeth I.

Women were subservient to men because they were expected to obey their husbands and their property became the property of their husband. This did not change until the Married Women's Property Act of 1882 - well outside the middle ages! And until very recently most women vowed to 'obey' their husbands.

I agree with MLE that peasants probably did not eat a great deal of meat or other luxury foods.

When you take out all the penitential days when the eating of meat was not allowed I don't think anyone in the middle ages ate as much meat as you might at first think. Excavations of medieval villages show that people ate pork, beef and lamb as well fruit and vegetables and fish (even in inland villages). But of course there would be times of famine when food was scarcer.

As I said earlier, the term Middle Ages is so vast and unquantifiable that it's very, very hard to say what did and didn't happen during such a long period of time.

[Rowan]

I would count the Middle Ages from the Norman invasion of 1066 until the end of the Plantagenets in 1485, though it could be argued that the dissolution of the monasteries is a better cut off point.

What dates does the site give if any?


The site gives the Middle Ages as being from the 5th to 16th Centuries.

Also, the list was not accompanied by any sort of documentation supporting what the writer of said list was claiming. It was just tossed up on one of these list websites. I snagged it off another general forum as something for us to toss around in discussion.

Okay coming in to edit this to say that now I know where all of the naive people go to learn their history. They take it from lists that they go berserk over. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Misfit]

And about cleanliness. I stomp the wilderness all the time, and I can tell you from personal experience that bodily hygiene is firmly linked to how tired you are at the end of a day, how much trouble it would take to freshen up, and whether anyone near you would care. Y'all wouldn't want to be downwind of me after a five-day-trip unless you smelled the same. But those middle-age peasants might have higher standards than I do.:D

Well, you should hear the stories we get from the boss when he comes back from his big mountain climbs - Everest for example. He pretty much said there's no pride left once that was over.

[donroc]

Spanish Christians from the 15th centuries onwards generally avoided the Jewish and Moorish practices of washing and bathing for fear of denunciation to the Inquisition.

[MLE]

Spanish Christians from the 15th centuries onwards generally avoided the Jewish and Moorish practices of washing and bathing for fear of denunciation to the Inquisition.

True, Donroc. Cleanliness and refusing to eat pork were quick identifyers for insincere converts of either Jewish or Muslim persuasion. Islam requires ritual washing before prayer, five times a day, with clean sand if there is no water. The hammam, or communal bath-house, was as important to Iberian Muslims as the sauna was to Scandinavians.
And ritual ablutions are an important part of Jewish religious practice as well.

The idea that 'dirtiness is next to Godliness' came from the ascetic traditions of the monastic community, with a lot of help from gnosticism, which held that the body is unspiritual. The monks would 'mortify the body' by refusing to wash and get extra points in the eyes of the people for the discomfort associated with dirt and lice. This opinion was by no means the position of most of the church-- in medieval times, the most-transcibed and sermonized book of the Bible was actually the Song of Solomon, which glorified the physical -- but it is also one of those 'medieval myths' which makes for attention-getting lists.

[Volgadon]

6. Smelly People
Myth: People didn’t bathe in the Middle Ages, therefore they smelled bad

Not only is this a total myth, it is so widely believed that it has given rise to a whole other series of myths, such as the false belief that Church incense was designed to hide the stink of so many people in one place. In fact, the incense was part of the Church’s rituals due to its history coming from the Jewish religion which also used incense in its sacrifices. This myth has also lead to the strange idea that people usually married in May or June because they didn’t stink so badly - having had their yearly bath. It is, of course, utter rubbish. People married in those months because marriage was not allowed during Lent (the season of penance). So, back to smelly people. In the Middle Ages, most towns had bathhouses - in fact, cleanliness and hygiene was very highly regarded - so much so that bathing was incorporated into various ceremonies such as those surrounding knighthood. Some people bathed daily, others less regularly - but most people bathed. Furthermore, they used hot water - they just had to heat it up themselves, unlike us with our modern plumbed hot water. The French put it best in the following Latin statement: Venari, ludere, lavari, bibere; Hoc est vivere! (To hunt, to play, to wash, to drink, - This is to live!)

I work at a baptismal site on the Jordan River. When people come out of the water, they smell. Heck if you shower without soap and shampoo you don't smell very delightful either. Skinny dipping is great for getting mud and manure off, but you will still smell afterwards. Not only that, but you wouldn't be able to bathe all year round. Winter is a given, but I think you couldn't bathe during the lents. Another factor is convenience. If you are up before dawn, work until it gets dark and have to get up early again, you are hardly likely to go down to the river or pond every day, especially if it isn't right next door. Then factor in drying time. Weigh that up against spending time with the wife, kids, helping your parents, chatting with your neighbours, maintainance work, fishing, hunting, hobbies and parties then tell me how frequently you would go bathing. And this is only men I am talking about. Who knows when women would find the time.
Bathing at home was just as difficult. Take a barrel, see how long it takes to fill by hand, then consider that you probably have to walk twenty minutes in each direction to draw water. Heating water was a lengthy process. It also uses up precious firewood. I have friends who live in a village in southern Russia. They have no running water, it has to come from a well. The village is barely electrified. The stove and oven are fuelled by firewood. I went to help them fetch more firewood and even figuring in my inexperience it was tiring and time consuming.
Ladelling water is not fun, it is also really cold! Up until a week ago our water heater was out of action, so I speak from experience.
I've recently lived in southern Russia, a really poor region. Deoderant is a bit more than what a large portion of the population can afford on a frequent basis. For the first ten years of my life (I was born and grew up in Israel) deoderant was a rarity, period. Few shops carried it. People stink without it.
The odour of sweat permeates everythig. For the medieval era you also have to factor in smoky stoves, cooking odours, the stench of detergents, animals and everything relating to your profession.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most medieval soap not intended for personal hygiene?
So this, I submit, is why the middle ages really did stink. Not for neglect, but for other factors.

[Volgadon]

Spanish Christians from the 15th centuries onwards generally avoided the Jewish and Moorish practices of washing and bathing for fear of denunciation to the Inquisition.

Another practice that would land you in trouble was changing your linen on a friday.

[EC2]

'The Senses in Late Medieval England' by C.M. Woolgar, Yale University Press is a fascinating book that looks at medieval attitudes to bathing in some detail. 'Late Medieval' is a misnomer as it takes in the early period too, even in some cases going as far back as Bede.
Thomas Becket was one of the 'Holy Dirt' brigade. When examined after death, his underwear was crawling with maggots. On another closed list to which I belong (probably to keep us all under lock and key:D) he is affectionately known as 'Ole Wormy.'

[Kasthu]

'The Senses in Late Medieval England' by C.M. Woolgar, Yale University Press is a fascinating book that looks at medieval attitudes to bathing in some detail. 'Late Medieval' is a misnomer as it takes in the early period too, even in some cases going as far back as Bede.
Thomas Becket was one of the 'Holy Dirt' brigade. When examined after death, his underwear was crawling with maggots. On another closed list to which I belong (probably to keep us all under lock and key:D) he is affectionately known as 'Ole Wormy.'

Ew. Just, ew.

[Margaret]

Rowan, you are to be commended for starting a truly fascinating discussion. I am learning so many things!

Scholars have used various cut-off points for the Middle Ages. In the recent past, I think the period from the fall of the Roman Empire (5th century) to the Norman Conquest (1066) was referred to as the Dark Ages (and still is by some), but I think the Dark Ages was generally considered to be a sub-category of the Middle Ages. Now, people are realizing that a lot was actually going on in the so-called Dark Ages and the term is falling out of use. Perhaps they were "dark" because they had not been well-studied and people didn't know much about the period. In any case, for purposes of my website, I include everything from the fall of the Roman Empire (except the Arthurian period in immediate post-Roman Britain, which I should probably reclassify) up to the Renaissance in the "Medieval" category.

[EC2]

Rowan, you are to be commended for starting a truly fascinating discussion. I am learning so many things!

Scholars have used various cut-off points for the Middle Ages. In the recent past, I think the period from the fall of the Roman Empire (5th century) to the Norman Conquest (1066) was referred to as the Dark Ages (and still is by some), but I think the Dark Ages was generally considered to be a sub-category of the Middle Ages. Now, people are realizing that a lot was actually going on in the so-called Dark Ages and the term is falling out of use. Perhaps they were "dark" because they had not been well-studied and people didn't know much about the period. In any case, for purposes of my website, I include everything from the fall of the Roman Empire (except the Arthurian period in immediate post-Roman Britain, which I should probably reclassify) up to the Renaissance in the "Medieval" category.

On a scholarly list I'm on, 'The Dark Ages' as a title for an age is frowned upon and their medieval period does start from the the fall of the Roman Empire. It's what I tend to use these days as a rule of thumb, but not so far as to knot my knickers :)

[donroc]

And then there is Rochester's complaint -- and can you not hear Johnny Depp reciting it?

"Fair nasty nymph, be clean and kind
And all my joys restore
By using paper still behind
And sponges for before."

[red805]

I am in the middle of listening to The High Middle Ages cd series from The Teaching Company. I absolutely recommend it, along with the companion Early Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages series. In these lectures, the Early Middle Ages are basically from the fall of the Roman Empire, or the very late Roman Empire to about 1000. The High Middle Ages are 1000 to 1300 or so. I haven't gotten to the Late Middle Ages yet, but I think the cds cover 1300 to middle to late-1400s, or maybe 1500. I'm certainly no expert, but some of the Top 10 Myths seem quite misleading, for instance citing the status, rights, or power of a few extraordinary women of those ages as if they weren't the exception. Is there an author of the Myths listed?

[Madeleine]

Someone on TV the other day said that the Dark Ages period was only called that as not much happened art and literature wise.

I'm enjoying all the discussions about bathing - I guess a lot of it did come down to the sheer practicalities of a person's situation; mind you I know someone who apparently doesn't bathe...he just uses lots of deodorant! But it's well-known that the Romans certainly had bath-houses.

[Volgadon]

Something I forgot to point out was that most people had few changes of clothing. Try wearing the same shirt for 5 years straight, day, day out.

[EC2]

Something I forgot to point out was that most people had few changes of clothing. Try wearing the same shirt for 5 years straight, day, day out.

But shirts and underwear were washed, and regularly. There's enough extant material on washerwomen and laundress's to make a strong case for this. Woollen top garments not so much, but there were refurbishment treatments for these. It would take longer than I have to collate all the evidence scattered through my extensive research library, but it's there, I promise you.
As to bathing. All over bathing was less frequent. King John took a bath once a fortnight, but washing was a part of every day life and had to do with respect as much as cleanliness. It was the other side of the 'Holy dirt' coin.
In my living memory people only took baths once a week and washed in the sink the rest of the time. Deoderants were new fangled too. I don't remember anyone being particularly smelly - although some of that could have come from familiarity with the odours involved.

[Volgadon]

Oh I know that linen was changed, but I meant the accumulative smell in the outer garments.
Familiarity with the odours involved is a good point, you would have to get acustomed to it or feel sick all the time.

[emr]

Bathing at home was just as difficult. Take a barrel, see how long it takes to fill by hand, then consider that you probably have to walk twenty minutes in each direction to draw water. Heating water was a lengthy process. It also uses up precious firewood.

I did try many years ago to fill a bathtub with hot water by hand. The worst part of it was that while you were painfully waiting for more water to heat, the first part was already cooling down.
My opinion? They didnt bathe, in the sense that you cant fill a bathtub to the rim and hapilly sumerge yourself in it. I think the logical way is to fill a bottom, lets say 15, 20 cm of water where you can sit and use it to soap yourself and then wash the rests with a bucket of water. Two extra buckets if you want to wash your hair. And that same bathtub and water serving for the entire family. Something half way between a bath and a shower.

Did they smell? I remember reading that romans used urine to wash clothes and even the teeth :eek: Not sure when the custom got lost.

Hm.. ah women... well during the middle ages as always, same as now, there are different cultures in europe, different races with different customs. Including matriarcal societies rooting way before the romans.

The end of the middle age? I know why you all give the 1485 date as an inflexion but IMO it's 1492. That year marks the start of the knowledge that the world is much bigger than they thought before and many aspects, political, religious, economical, had to be reconsidered.

I'd like to add a bit of light on their grade of civilitation though. Do you know the Convent of Christ in Portugal? It was built by the templars in 1160. Been there, seen it with my own eyes. They had A.C. (heating) in the cells. Seriously.

Emi

[EC2]

Oh I know that linen was changed, but I meant the accumulative smell in the outer garments.
Familiarity with the odours involved is a good point, you would have to get acustomed to it or feel sick all the time.

I think you would definitely be accustomed to the smell of your fellows in your surroundings and it would just be normal. Sometimes when we go shopping, there's a woman in the supermarket at the same time who obviously does not wash herself or her clothes. You can smell her a mile away - she leaves a trail that to my modern nose it is strong and unpleasant. However, I also recognise that it's a smell I would be able to adapt to if forced to do so, and if it was the norm I wouldn't notice it.
Having said that, efforts were made to keep outer garments in a reasonable state. See 'Ye Shall Have it Cleane' Textile cleaning techniques in Renaissance Europe by Drea Leed: Paper in Medieval Clothing and Textiles vol 2 edited by Robin Netherton and Gale R. Owen Crocker published by Boydell.
Same book has a painting of medieval washer women hard at it, beating their linens on boards and rinsing them off in the stream.

[donroc]

I remember reading, true or not, that the Masai vomited or were severely nauseated when they first smelled European soap.

It is recorded that Henry IV of France smelled of goat.

We may adapt to a degree, but humans know a vile stench when they encounter it.

[nona]

I always thought that peasants had grains in forms of gruel and bread on a daily basis I didn't realize they had meat on a daily basis too, I thought they only had them on festive days and fresh kills of their own animals if they had them and/or a hunt.

[Libby]

Well, I'll go back just 45 years rather than 450. My grandmother lived in a two-up, two down house with no bathroom. There was one cold water tap in the kitchen and a toilet 'down the yard'. She never had a bath. She stripped off in the kitchen and had a 'wash down'.

When I was a child I had a bath once a week in a few inches of water (and bath water was sometimes shared by children in the same family to save the cost of heating the water).

For the rest of the week we washed hands and faces. There was no deodorant. We changed our underwear once a week. We probably did smell!

I would guess that most people in the Middle Ages washed in a basin. If they wanted to bathe they would go to the bath-house except that they became known for prostitution rather than washing.(e.g. the stews in London. so much for cleanliness being next to godliness ;)).

Important people though would have had enough servants to heat and fill a tub.

[Madeleine]

Yes, my mum can remember having an outside loo as well, many houses in London still have outside loos although I think most people now have an inside one as well! Or have the outside one "enclosed" so it's built into the house, up until a few years ago one of my friends still had an outside loo (although she did have a proper bathroom as well). It's true you can get used to smells pretty quickly, I remember when I've visited a farm and at first the smell practically knocked me over, however after a few minutes I didn't really notice it.

[Kveto from Prague]

i remembered a famous little tidbit from ahmed ibn fazlan about the hygine of the viking rus when he travelled amongst them. ahmed was from bagdad where the weather was warm enough for bathing but he was travelling near novogorod where any time spent in cold water would probably kill you. he discussed the rus's morning hygine that a girl would bring a bowl of water to the men. each would wash his face, comb his hair and spit his phlem and blows his shot into the water. we he is done the girl carries the same bowl with the same water to the next man who repeats the process.

one can feel the revulsion in ahmeds report with a disgust that echos through the centuries.

worst of all one really worries about the hygine in anglo-saxon england as their chroniclers often describe vikings as very clean people. if thats what they considered clean....

im gonna go take another shower:-)

[EC2]

I always thought that peasants had grains in forms of gruel and bread on a daily basis I didn't realize they had meat on a daily basis too, I thought they only had them on festive days and fresh kills of their own animals if they had them and/or a hunt.

The peasant class ate a lot less meat than we do now. C.M. Woolgar crops up again in Food in Medieval England which has an exhaustive discussion of the Medieval diet - as it pertained to England obviously! If there wasn't a famine and things were going along okay, a peasant could expect to eat a diet of grains, as you say, with bacon thrown in from the pig (s) slaughtered in November. Every part of that pig would be used and eaten at some point or another. There would be poultry, eggs in season, a certain amount of cheese. Wild food. Fish. You probably wouldn't eat much meat at all in Lent because a) there wasn't much about by that time of year and b) there was the reinforcement of the religious connotations to make you abstain. Ann Hagen's Food in Anglo Saxon England is a good book on the subject of medieval food (goes outside the AS period). Also interesting is Food and Eating in Medieval Europe by Carlin and Rosenthal. There are some terrific essays in that, including one about fast food establishments and another about peasant diet.

[Leyland]

Did the peasants get much Vitamin C before the potato was 'brought over'? Having just read The Terror by Dan Simmons and getting a very realistic visual idea of how scurvy kills, I'm wondering if peasants had issues with scurvy since they mostly ate grains and some protein. Cabbage and carrots could have supplied some C. Did the peasant class get to plant those for their personal consumption? I guess citrus fruits didn't come their way often - maybe from Spain, but could they afford them?

[annis]

There's a chapter in the book "Food and Eating in Medieval Europe" called "Did the Peasants Really Starve in Medieval England" (http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ1lFaXBUbkC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=vitamin+c+medieval+peasants&source=web&ots=8riz8ONUe0&sig=mHem-XQ2FeffMlTzkgYrY89WDp0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA53,M1) by Christopher Dyer (much of it is available here, beginning pg 52)
The author points out that peasants didn't just eat grain and the few vegetables which they could grow themselves, but supplemented their diet by foraging for greens including herbs, berries, roots, nuts etc in the surrounding woodlands, though also comments that they seemed to get by on quite low levels of vitamin C.

[Leyland]

So, they were a scurvy lot!

[annis]

Yep- it's probably the origin of the insulting phrase "scurvy knave!" :)

[annis]

Posted by keny from prague
i remembered a famous little tidbit from ahmed ibn fazlan about the hygine of the viking rus when he travelled amongst them.

I remember that bit, keny- Michael Crighton borrowed this scene in his novel "Eaters of the Dead", an entertaining 10th century adventure featuring Muslim Ahmad ibn Fadlan, Vikings and evil Beowulf/Neanderthal creatures.
The scene with the snotty washing water also appears in the movie version, "The 13th Warrior" , starring Antonio Banderas as ibn Fadlan.

In fact I think that the Vikings (at home anyway) were relatively clean. Archaeologists have discovered combs, wash basins :) and bath houses in Viking settlements.

[Ludmilla]

... peasants didn't just eat grain and the few vegetables which they could grow themselves, but supplemented their diet by foraging for greens including herbs, berries, roots, nuts etc in the surrounding woodlands, though also comments that they seemed to get by on quite low levels of vitamin C.

I think people would be surprised what herbs and veggies also contain vitamin C -- perhaps not high levels, but enough to prevent one from getting scurvy. I think even parsley contains vitamin C. I remember reading about one sea voyage where the sailors loaded up on parsley and some other local herbs to recover from their scurvy. I think I also read that some of the Chinese vessels avoided this problem by growing food (vegetables, for example) on their ships, though the bigger the ship, the longer the voyage the more inevitable the problem would be. Those long sea voyages, the hardships involved, have always fascinated me!

[Ludmilla]

Sorry about the double post but this is bugging me now. I thought I read somewhere that the Chinese grew food on their ships. Now I'm not so sure. I did find this, though:

The reason why scurvy was banished from the long-distance sailing ships of the Chinese Ming dynasty (1368-1644) was due to the fact that the crew were regularly given fresh, germinated soya beans to eat, as part of their traditional food. Unlike non-germinated seeds, these shoots are rich in vitamin C. The importance of the absence of scurvy is not to be underestimated, since the voyages of the Chinese admiral Zheng He (1421) led to world maps, which were obtained by the Portuguese crown and were a crucial element for the major discovery expeditions of Henry the Navigator, opening the world for the West, a fundamental turning point in history.


Not that any of this has anything to do with misconceptions about the Middle Ages. :eek:

[Libby]

I've been thinking about what fruits would have been available in medieval England. There would probably have been native fruits such as blackcurrants, blackberries, strawberries, gooseberries in season as well as apples, pears, plums and quince. Many of these may well have been cultivated as well as growing wild.

I doubt that many of these were eaten raw as fruit, but would have been preserved or used in sauces when cooking.

[EC2]

I've been thinking about what fruits would have been available in medieval England. There would probably have been native fruits such as blackcurrants, blackberries, strawberries, gooseberries in season as well as apples, pears, plums and quince. Many of these may well have been cultivated as well as growing wild.

I doubt that many of these were eaten raw as fruit, but would have been preserved or used in sauces when cooking.

Blackcurrants weren't native and came in later. Best thing to do is read Anne Hagen's Food in Anglo Saxon England for the lowdown on what was and wasn't available, how it was grown, processed and eaten. It covers more than just the Anglo Saxon period. It's one of my desert island food history books as far as research goes. I put black currants in The Winter Mantle and then discovered they weren't native. Also see CM Woolgar Food in Meideval England, Yale University Press, specifically for details on gardens and garden produce and the archaeology of Medieval plant foods. I took an excellent course on medieval foods and cooking with Dr. Gillian Polack over at suite 101 a few years ago.
As an e.g. from Hagen she lists apples, pears, crab apples, pears, cherries, plums, peaches (imported, I don't know, but mentioned in leechdoms) elder, mulberries, blackberries, strawberries, myrtle, sloe, whortleberry, bullace, damson,grapes, raspberries. There's a certain amount of discussions re tree grafts and cultivation. Fruits were both cultivated and culled from the wild.
They were eaten both raw and cooked.

[EC2]

Meant to add, re scurvy, which could happen after the long winter months, the first wild greens of the year were eaten with alacrity. We have one that grown early-ish called Jack By the Hedge. Smells of garlic but doesn't taste of much. Good vitamin C though. Also Sorrel pudding was a favourite. I have the recipe lurking somewhere, but it's not very palatable to modern tastes. Brilliant for vit C. again though.

[nona]

I would have to say that unless forced to leave solid land I would never do so, first off I'm not a water kinda person and second off chances were you were going to be out there a long time and you always seemd to run out of food or at least fresh food and the stench! unless of course if it's a channel but open sea, I'ld be witless.

[Margaret]

Medieval folks ate a lot of greens and roots that we no longer have in our regular culinary repertoire. A lot of these were semi-wild and contained (still contain, actually) a lot more vitamins than our modern veggies do.

[annis]

I recall reading that in medieval times people ate greens which were much more feral and bitter than modern taste could cope with. And as we know, bitter means more nutritional value. Possibly this is the origin of the saying that if it tastes bad it must be good for you.

[LoveHistory]

I consider much of the list to be suspect.

And I'm reminded of the fact that a lot of what we "know" about any such distant point in history is really just a guess based on the evidence left behind.

It's interesting to think of what people a few hundred years from now might decide our experiences were. They seem to have spent hours in front of electronic boxes. Apparrently this was an amusement for them. They became so attached to the boxes that they developed permanently curved fingers, which as we know resulted in...

[Ash]

Do you know about the tribe of the Nacirema?

http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/boomie/nacirema.html

[LoveHistory]

ROFL! Thank you Ash. I was a bit confused by the baking of heads in magic boxes, but the rest was perfectly clear.

[Libby]

Blackcurrants weren't native and came in later. Best thing to do is read Anne Hagen's Food in Anglo Saxon England for the lowdown on what was and wasn't available, how it was grown, processed and eaten. It covers more than just the Anglo Saxon period. It's one of my desert island food history books as far as research goes. I put black currants in The Winter Mantle and then discovered they weren't native. Also see CM Woolgar Food in Meideval England, Yale University Press, specifically for details on gardens and garden produce and the archaeology of Medieval plant foods. I took an excellent course on medieval foods and cooking with Dr. Gillian Polack over at suite 101 a few years ago.
As an e.g. from Hagen she lists apples, pears, crab apples, pears, cherries, plums, peaches (imported, I don't know, but mentioned in leechdoms) elder, mulberries, blackberries, strawberries, myrtle, sloe, whortleberry, bullace, damson,grapes, raspberries. There's a certain amount of discussions re tree grafts and cultivation. Fruits were both cultivated and culled from the wild.
They were eaten both raw and cooked.

Thanks for that! I'm learning that the devil really is in the detail as far as historical fiction is concerned.

[Margaret]

Peaches! That's a surprise. Aren't they native to China?

[EC2]

Peaches! That's a surprise. Aren't they native to China?

I don't know - They certainly don't grow here well now. Hagen mentions them three times in the book but always as a literary reference in leechdoms. However, two peach trees were planted at the Tower of London in 1275 (Medieval Gardens by Teresa McLean) but they were dear - 6pence each as opposed to the cherry trees planted at the same time which only cost a quarter penny. They appear to have been high status and not prolific - peripheral rather than common.

[Margaret]

And it was colder in the Middle Ages than it is now. But I think they grew tender plants in special walled gardens where they were sheltered from the wind and where the stone walls held the warmth of the day through much of the night. They may even have been espaliered. I suppose the young peach saplings journeyed along the Silk Road with all sorts of other exotic luxuries. Wealthy medieval folk did have spices from the Orient - also very expensive.

[annis]

Peaches did originate in China, but quickly spread widely into the Eastern countries. The Persians brought peaches from China. From Persia they went to Egypt, where the Romans picked them up. The Romans called them persicum malum, (Persian apple) and in English the word "peach" derives from the Latin name. In Middle English, it melded into "peche", much closer to what we call it today. I don't think that they became common as a fruit for general consumption in England and France, though, until the seventtenth century, but were probably as EC suggests, used for medicinal purposes.

The Crusades did have the effect of exposing the French and English to spices, fruits and vegetables more common in the Middle East and the Mediterranean.

[Ash]

ROFL! Thank you Ash. I was a bit confused by the baking of heads in magic boxes, but the rest was perfectly clear.

Young un, before blow dryers and such, we sat under dryers at the salon, to dry our hair. These were big helmet things, and worked well enough, tho sometimes the stylist forgot about you and oh it got hot!

[Misfit]

Young un, before blow dryers and such, we sat under dryers at the salon, to dry our hair. These were big helmet things, and worked well enough, tho sometimes the stylist forgot about you and oh it got hot!

Now, I do believe you have forgotten to mention that lovely pink tape they used to hold those little curly cues (WTH did one call those, female sideburns?) in place on the side of one's face.

Never ever let us return to the days of Farrah Fawcett hairdo's. I couldn't take it again :o:p:):D;)

[Margaret]

Aha! The Persian connection makes perfect sense to me. (And so do the magic baking boxes.)

[Telynor]

Now, I do believe you have forgotten to mention that lovely pink tape they used to hold those little curly cues (WTH did one call those, female sideburns?) in place on the side of one's face.

Never ever let us return to the days of Farrah Fawcett hairdo's. I couldn't take it again :o:p:):D;)

Heheh. Oh they've never gone away -- just look at the televangelist's wives on the preachin' channels -- there's one on there with this pinky-orange hair that is about a foot out from all around her head, and the makeup on about an inch thick. Saw that late one night and thought I was having a flash-back.

[Misfit]

Heheh. Oh they've never gone away -- just look at the televangelist's wives on the preachin' channels -- there's one on there with this pinky-orange hair that is about a foot out from all around her head, and the makeup on about an inch thick. Saw that late one night and thought I was having a flash-back.


:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Good lord, are they still around??? See what I miss not watching TV?

[LCW]

Never ever let us return to the days of Farrah Fawcett hairdo's. I couldn't take it again :o:p:):D;)


OMG, I looove Farrah Fawcett type hair, lol!!! What's old is new, I guess! :D

[Volgadon]

Don't you mean eww rather than new

[chuck]

Young un, before blow dryers and such, we sat under dryers at the salon, to dry our hair. These were big helmet things, and worked well enough, tho sometimes the stylist forgot about you and oh it got hot!

Ash...I remember seeing pix. of women sitting in salons with those outer space hot air helmets...I remember the smell of hairspray, and backcombing (ouch)......I remember my high school sweetheart said she couldn't leave the house because she just washed her hair?.........she sat around with a towel around her head most of the night....Do you think Big Hair will ever come back?.....BTW....I haven't been to a barber in years....women are so much better at cutting hair.......Peace

[Ash]

If the clothing that I wore in the 70s was able to come back a few years ago, yeah, big hair will too.